The Divine Plan or His Work in Progress
FROM BARR TO SANDERS
First off, I was very impressed with chapter 2 in “The God Who Risks”. Sanders made it clear that he understood what I considered Barr’s shortcomings to be such. His view on anthropomorphism and semantic argument, along with the inconsistencies of modern theological logic pertaining to God’s characteristics and “infinite” nature were excellently depicted. However, I feel that while Barr became victim of his own arguments, Sanders did so more directly. Paradoxically, Barr explained his stance on design through mathematical order and physical causation, merely to reduce it to indeterminate, thus logically providing for free agency. All the while, Sanders rips down other theologies to provide a theology just as vulnerable to the same criticisms.
Specifically, Sanders rips apart someone claiming to know that we cannot know the true nature of God because of our limitations. Sanders correctly and perhaps paradoxically questions how she can know something is not knowable, one would seemingly have to know enough about it at least to know one could not know it. He is correct in this distinction (31) that we cannot fathom that which is other than us, to bluntly summarize. However, there is something to the woman’s argument, that Sanders does not give credit, and that is through the classic Sherlock Holmes and his reputed abilities of deduction. It is true that we know enough about many things in order to know we don’t know a large deal about them. The phrase “we’ve just scratched the surface” often used by scientists and explorers is an example of knowledge about the unknown. In fact, everything we learn about we find that there is simply more out there about it and everything else to learn about. We are very limited beings in our knowledge, but we have great capacity to attain it. We know visually what colors and wavelengths of light we can see, and we have given names to those we cannot see, in order to refer to them. But we know from deduction that one of their qualities is being beyond our sight, despite the fact that we cannot see it.
It is criticisms such as this that are also applicable to Sanders theory. He often states the nature of God and his relationship with us. In fact it is an expert theory in regards to scriptural exegesis. Yet, he believes for one, that we can understand the “Most High” whether or not He is infinite, despite His being far less finite than ourselves. He believes this can be done through divine revelation, yet he believes, perhaps too far, that while God can sufficiently communicate a message through revelation that man can comprehend, that man too has the ability to convey a message from God to other men. I admit this is conceivable, but it is definitely a big step when God is reduced from the interaction. For this reason I believe that resting one’s perception on the revelation or assumed relationship between some one else and God is far less certain than belief based on one’s own relationship with God or revelation from God. If God is as relational as Sanders claims, why trust the word of anyone other than God. Go to the source, not the Bible. His claims are that one cannot understand that which is more than himself, yet in the case of God, the part man can understand is all man needs to understand, and so is sufficient. Yet he does go far too far in my opinion when discussing the relational and active participation of God in our lives. Because I have just as much right to ask Sanders how he knows this about God, and he can perhaps justifiably indicate the reason is because he communes with God all the time. But what he cannot do is give me revelation or permit me to see and communicate with God when I have not. And I believe only a fool simply trusts, as Sanders has indicated, that someone else knows about the divine and can tell you about Him.
THE DIVINE PLAN or A WORK IN PROGRESS
Sanders and I greatly disagree on the lack of a Divine Plan. While I am an atheistic agnostic (I do not know if there is a God, but I know I live as if there were none.), I do believe that order exists throughout the universe. It appears to me that the design theorists such as Barr, have something right when they see that laws and tendencies of chemistry and physics interweave until the creation of life comes into fruition, and that from life are noticed tendencies that we attribute as biological laws. Nature, chemistry, and physics all seem to move in directions that seem to us to be pointed. I believe there is some sort of causal chain. There is a deterministic element that is obvious in all things. To what end, I do not, may continue not, and perhaps cannot know. For this reason, I believe that the theory of “Intelligent Design” is the second most evident reason for belief in a God. The first would be “Divine Revelation”, or the interaction between oneself and something he could not deny.
The problem with divine revelation is that if I heard voices, and they led me to believe they were sourced from divinity, I may ask for proof, but the only revelation that counts for proof is that which one cannot deny. If the nature of the voices were such that it seemed that I was getting messages from some great being in the sky that claimed to be the creator of all. I might believe in God. The problem with design is that from my perspective the design is there. What is not clear is how, why, or that it entails the necessity of a mind to conjure it.
However, because I think causality is self evident throughout the nature of all things, I could not possibly believe in a God that did not work through rational, physical, causal means. For many people of faith, God is the Design in all things…not the designer. This is what I think is evident of Einstein’s actual theory of the divine, although he quotes about God and religion in a very traditional way. It is because I see this as evident, but not evident of God, that if I were to believe in a creator, he would be the creator of some divine plan. The only exception would be if I were confronted directly by God, through divine revelation, that there is only the appearance of a plan, and at the largest (big bang) and smallest (quantum theory) parts is just as the movie, “What the Bleep Do We Know?” suggested –at these levels all is chaotic, and existence and perception of such is simply a choose your own adventure book which provides for free will, and for the progression of a finite personal deity.
Back to the text, Sanders declares that to think of a person’s choices as following a divine blueprint, would be a case of “reading into” what happened and making God responsible for the bad things that had to happen in fulfillment of such a blueprint. However, to assume that these women (56) were not fulfilling “God’s Plan” through whatever choices is to “read into” the nature of God’s interaction with His creation.
As for a plan which necessitates that which man calls “evil” or “bad”, can there be any possible plan in which “goodness” exists without the contrast of evil? Logic tells us this cannot be so. Furthermore, what we call “bad”, like spiders, may not be so to God. Again, what we call “good”, such as life and living, has no impact as good without the contrast of death and dying. Moreover, it has been theorized that God tried this already in Eden, and gave man the choice to create a world based on the consequences of engaging in actions declared by god as sin. Such consequences were named in the Bible to include pain and death. Under this reasoning, responsibility for the atrocities committed by man against man is but a remnant of the fall of man -a choice of man which may have been made possible by the grace of God. This is to say that it is God’s grace which allows for the existence of man’s ability to make choices. Yet, in order to give import to such choices, God had to create that which is evil. God created evil for man (it apparently existed sometime earlier for Lucifer as indicated by the Bible later on) by giving his creations a commandment. The sin would be the disobedience of the commandment, and the results were warned about before the choice to sin was ever made. God told them that if they were to eat from the tree they would surely die. Sanders offers interpretations in which this consequence did not happen, or did not happen the way God said it would, but that is masturbation of his own philosophy. We know now, as Sanders should have known when he wrote his book, that Adam and Eve (if they ever lived), as the story goes, did not die before choosing to consume the forbidden fruit. To boot, it is not made clear that “the circle of life” existed in any form before the choice to disobey was made. The lion was said to have lain down with the lamb, not to have eaten or killed the lamb. It is made clear that after (however long after) Adam and Eve surely died. The consequence declared by God was fulfilled; perhaps, like with the entering of “the promised land”, it did not occur when people thought it should have happened.
WHAT IS GOOD?
More importantly, in regards to responsibility, who is the pot to question the potter? If we exist in any form, at any time or in anyway due to a creator, then we owe everything to said creator. As they say, to have loved and lost is better than never to have loved at all. I think the same could be said about existing or living. Goodness in any form is relative. Omnibenevolence is quite possibly a contradiction of logic or at least of import as mentioned before by the value of contrast. However, goodness is defined by the sovereign (He who cannot be opposed), if there is one, who decrees it. It is because it is decreed by he who cannot be opposed that it is good, not by those who would interpret for themselves which is good and which is not. In this sense, goodness is either relative to the interpreter, or if it does exist absolutely, then it is because it is decreed by the sovereign, in which case, the interpreter (man) would be mistaken about that which is good as declared by his creator. Even if all mankind agreed that God was not good, if God created all that is, our interpretation is less than a scream in space, and changes nothing; it is a will but not a will to power.
First off, I was very impressed with chapter 2 in “The God Who Risks”. Sanders made it clear that he understood what I considered Barr’s shortcomings to be such. His view on anthropomorphism and semantic argument, along with the inconsistencies of modern theological logic pertaining to God’s characteristics and “infinite” nature were excellently depicted. However, I feel that while Barr became victim of his own arguments, Sanders did so more directly. Paradoxically, Barr explained his stance on design through mathematical order and physical causation, merely to reduce it to indeterminate, thus logically providing for free agency. All the while, Sanders rips down other theologies to provide a theology just as vulnerable to the same criticisms.
Specifically, Sanders rips apart someone claiming to know that we cannot know the true nature of God because of our limitations. Sanders correctly and perhaps paradoxically questions how she can know something is not knowable, one would seemingly have to know enough about it at least to know one could not know it. He is correct in this distinction (31) that we cannot fathom that which is other than us, to bluntly summarize. However, there is something to the woman’s argument, that Sanders does not give credit, and that is through the classic Sherlock Holmes and his reputed abilities of deduction. It is true that we know enough about many things in order to know we don’t know a large deal about them. The phrase “we’ve just scratched the surface” often used by scientists and explorers is an example of knowledge about the unknown. In fact, everything we learn about we find that there is simply more out there about it and everything else to learn about. We are very limited beings in our knowledge, but we have great capacity to attain it. We know visually what colors and wavelengths of light we can see, and we have given names to those we cannot see, in order to refer to them. But we know from deduction that one of their qualities is being beyond our sight, despite the fact that we cannot see it.
It is criticisms such as this that are also applicable to Sanders theory. He often states the nature of God and his relationship with us. In fact it is an expert theory in regards to scriptural exegesis. Yet, he believes for one, that we can understand the “Most High” whether or not He is infinite, despite His being far less finite than ourselves. He believes this can be done through divine revelation, yet he believes, perhaps too far, that while God can sufficiently communicate a message through revelation that man can comprehend, that man too has the ability to convey a message from God to other men. I admit this is conceivable, but it is definitely a big step when God is reduced from the interaction. For this reason I believe that resting one’s perception on the revelation or assumed relationship between some one else and God is far less certain than belief based on one’s own relationship with God or revelation from God. If God is as relational as Sanders claims, why trust the word of anyone other than God. Go to the source, not the Bible. His claims are that one cannot understand that which is more than himself, yet in the case of God, the part man can understand is all man needs to understand, and so is sufficient. Yet he does go far too far in my opinion when discussing the relational and active participation of God in our lives. Because I have just as much right to ask Sanders how he knows this about God, and he can perhaps justifiably indicate the reason is because he communes with God all the time. But what he cannot do is give me revelation or permit me to see and communicate with God when I have not. And I believe only a fool simply trusts, as Sanders has indicated, that someone else knows about the divine and can tell you about Him.
THE DIVINE PLAN or A WORK IN PROGRESS
Sanders and I greatly disagree on the lack of a Divine Plan. While I am an atheistic agnostic (I do not know if there is a God, but I know I live as if there were none.), I do believe that order exists throughout the universe. It appears to me that the design theorists such as Barr, have something right when they see that laws and tendencies of chemistry and physics interweave until the creation of life comes into fruition, and that from life are noticed tendencies that we attribute as biological laws. Nature, chemistry, and physics all seem to move in directions that seem to us to be pointed. I believe there is some sort of causal chain. There is a deterministic element that is obvious in all things. To what end, I do not, may continue not, and perhaps cannot know. For this reason, I believe that the theory of “Intelligent Design” is the second most evident reason for belief in a God. The first would be “Divine Revelation”, or the interaction between oneself and something he could not deny.
The problem with divine revelation is that if I heard voices, and they led me to believe they were sourced from divinity, I may ask for proof, but the only revelation that counts for proof is that which one cannot deny. If the nature of the voices were such that it seemed that I was getting messages from some great being in the sky that claimed to be the creator of all. I might believe in God. The problem with design is that from my perspective the design is there. What is not clear is how, why, or that it entails the necessity of a mind to conjure it.
However, because I think causality is self evident throughout the nature of all things, I could not possibly believe in a God that did not work through rational, physical, causal means. For many people of faith, God is the Design in all things…not the designer. This is what I think is evident of Einstein’s actual theory of the divine, although he quotes about God and religion in a very traditional way. It is because I see this as evident, but not evident of God, that if I were to believe in a creator, he would be the creator of some divine plan. The only exception would be if I were confronted directly by God, through divine revelation, that there is only the appearance of a plan, and at the largest (big bang) and smallest (quantum theory) parts is just as the movie, “What the Bleep Do We Know?” suggested –at these levels all is chaotic, and existence and perception of such is simply a choose your own adventure book which provides for free will, and for the progression of a finite personal deity.
Back to the text, Sanders declares that to think of a person’s choices as following a divine blueprint, would be a case of “reading into” what happened and making God responsible for the bad things that had to happen in fulfillment of such a blueprint. However, to assume that these women (56) were not fulfilling “God’s Plan” through whatever choices is to “read into” the nature of God’s interaction with His creation.
As for a plan which necessitates that which man calls “evil” or “bad”, can there be any possible plan in which “goodness” exists without the contrast of evil? Logic tells us this cannot be so. Furthermore, what we call “bad”, like spiders, may not be so to God. Again, what we call “good”, such as life and living, has no impact as good without the contrast of death and dying. Moreover, it has been theorized that God tried this already in Eden, and gave man the choice to create a world based on the consequences of engaging in actions declared by god as sin. Such consequences were named in the Bible to include pain and death. Under this reasoning, responsibility for the atrocities committed by man against man is but a remnant of the fall of man -a choice of man which may have been made possible by the grace of God. This is to say that it is God’s grace which allows for the existence of man’s ability to make choices. Yet, in order to give import to such choices, God had to create that which is evil. God created evil for man (it apparently existed sometime earlier for Lucifer as indicated by the Bible later on) by giving his creations a commandment. The sin would be the disobedience of the commandment, and the results were warned about before the choice to sin was ever made. God told them that if they were to eat from the tree they would surely die. Sanders offers interpretations in which this consequence did not happen, or did not happen the way God said it would, but that is masturbation of his own philosophy. We know now, as Sanders should have known when he wrote his book, that Adam and Eve (if they ever lived), as the story goes, did not die before choosing to consume the forbidden fruit. To boot, it is not made clear that “the circle of life” existed in any form before the choice to disobey was made. The lion was said to have lain down with the lamb, not to have eaten or killed the lamb. It is made clear that after (however long after) Adam and Eve surely died. The consequence declared by God was fulfilled; perhaps, like with the entering of “the promised land”, it did not occur when people thought it should have happened.
WHAT IS GOOD?
More importantly, in regards to responsibility, who is the pot to question the potter? If we exist in any form, at any time or in anyway due to a creator, then we owe everything to said creator. As they say, to have loved and lost is better than never to have loved at all. I think the same could be said about existing or living. Goodness in any form is relative. Omnibenevolence is quite possibly a contradiction of logic or at least of import as mentioned before by the value of contrast. However, goodness is defined by the sovereign (He who cannot be opposed), if there is one, who decrees it. It is because it is decreed by he who cannot be opposed that it is good, not by those who would interpret for themselves which is good and which is not. In this sense, goodness is either relative to the interpreter, or if it does exist absolutely, then it is because it is decreed by the sovereign, in which case, the interpreter (man) would be mistaken about that which is good as declared by his creator. Even if all mankind agreed that God was not good, if God created all that is, our interpretation is less than a scream in space, and changes nothing; it is a will but not a will to power.
Note: This is my conclusion for now (otherwise the paper goes on and on). But I want to hold onto the book for the rest of the semester, so I can continue using it on my papers to compare and contrast with the other books we are reading. Also, I just barely watched the movie “What the Bleep Do We Know?”, so in the next couple of weeks I plan on writing another paper on that movie, as well as finishing some more of what I wanted to say about Sanders’ book. Thanks,
~Chris Blight